Tag Archives: Marraige

4 Tough Parenting Approaches that Work

10491278_10152091318686599_8769886226755773189_nWhile watching my kids play at the park yesterday, my daughter came running to me from under play structure, crying and rubbing her forehead. She had bumped her head on the underside of of the fire engine jungle gym. A hug, a kiss on the forehead, and and a few comforting words later, she was running around again. The most natural response to my little girl’s feeling pain, is offering comfort and doing the best I can to make it better. This is a natural response for parents. Protecting our children is programmed into our DNA. The most natural thing in the world is to hurt when our kids hurt and to try to fix it. Unfortunately, as time goes on, this instinct can get in the way of healthy development into adulthood. There are times when parents need to reign in their instinct and allow their children to struggle or hurt sometimes because its whats best for them.

There is a great line in in Proverbs:

Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. 

Proverbs 13:24

Many folks read this as a direction to spank their kids. While this may be the case, disciplining your child includes far more than just spanking. Discipline is a wide ranging concept that is downright difficult for parents to follow through with, largely because it runs totally contrary to our inborn parental drive to protect and comfort. Here are four difficult forms of discipline every child needs, but parents are often reluctant to provide:

Natural consequences– Natural consequences are the natural, expected outcome of poor decision making. For example, if a child waits until the night before a project is due before they start working on it, 10624972_10152244365051599_3708616376640736165_nthen the natural consequence is a poor grade. All too often, parents see their child panicked the day before, and bail them out. At times this involves doing the work for them or calling them in sick for school the next day. These situations are teachable opportunities. Parents must decide if they will teach their child that someone else will always be there to bail them out, or if they will learn the hard lesson: “If you don’t do the work, you will fail.” This is one example, but of a huge area of teaching. If you watch people long enough, you will witness parents who attack teachers because their kids aren’t getting A’s, or demanding their kid gets to play a starting position on the soccer team, or any other situation where a parent shields their child from the consequences of their actions or failures. I’m not saying that helping your kid deal with consequences isn’t okay sometimes. Rather, I am saying that protecting them from everything teaches them to be sheltered.

Let them struggle– My little girl’s theme song right now is: “I need some help to do that.” It almost always starts playing when I ask her to do something she finds distasteful, like finishing lunch or cleaning up her toys. There are other times she tries to do things that she is just too small or young to do easily. In most instances it’s easier or seems more compassionate to help. I want her to think I will help her and take care of her. However, sometimes she needs to struggle in order to build perseverance and tenacity. If quitting is always an acceptable option, then queen she doesn’t want to do things, she’ll quit. Sometimes she needs to struggle through something difficult on her own in order to understand that the sweetest victories in life are the hard fought victories. One day my son will probably have to punch a bully in the nose. My daughter will need to practice piano for an hour a day to learn to play. Letting them face these hard situations and struggle through them creates character.

Let them fail- Our culture doesn’t seem to like letting kids lose or experience sad feelings. This has spawned sports leagues that don’t keep score and situations where kids are guaranteed success. How we deal with failure is easily as important as how we deal with success. Learning to fail and keep trying is very important, largely because there is little that can be accomplished in life without failing. Parents sometimes need to back up and let their kids fail. Its hard and heartbreaking, but its an important life lesson.

Praise their effort not their existence- I’m going to admit that this is really hard for me. I spend all kinds of time talking to my kids, and really love how they react to praise. The problem with this is that praise can train the wrong lessons into kids. We want them to feel good about themselves and be confident, but praise for things that are handed to them or not earned teaches them that they are great just for being. A far stronger lesson is praising them for the work they put in. If a child learns that their hard work is worthy and good, they will work hard. If they are perfect just for getting out of bed in the morning, they’ll expect praise for getting out of bed in the morning. Praising is good, it can reinforce behaviors. It must be used properly to be effective.

Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

5 Ways for Husbands to Sacrificially Serve Their Wives

husbands 2

Ephesians 5 is perhaps one of the most argued about scriptures in terms of male/female relationships. Arguments over who is in charge, what submission means, who owes who what, whether or not it is even relevant to modern matrimony, and all manner of other junk dominate the landscape of popular discussion of this passage. Interestingly, much of the discussion centers around a philosophical assumption regarding our rights in the marital setting. The question of who is owed what and what are my rights demonstrates something significant about how the discussion is being engaged. Namely, that the discussion is missing the point of Paul’s words. Paul isn’t talking about what each spouse is due. He is explaining how imitating Christ looks in the context of marriage. I’d love it if my wife submitted me, always treated me with respect, and had Proverbs 31 tattooed on her soul, but that is between her and Jesus. My job, and the job of every husband, is to love their wives like Christ loved the church and to prepare her to be presented to God as a pure, spotless individuals.

The specific meaning of this phrase cannot be missed. I cannot look at my wife as a subject, or someone who owes me something. Instead, I need to love and serve her sacrificially. I need to give of myself, selflessly and set aside my own desires for her benefit. Jesus washed his disciples feet to demonstrate the lowness of our attitude of service. In addition, he died for the church. As husbands, our job is to serve and to aid our spouse in spiritual growth. We are to help our wives become Christlike. If we spend time concerning over her responsibilities and what she owes us, we cannot fulfill this directive. Such thinking runs counter to it. This raises an important question of how do we follow through with this in a concrete way. I, like most men, like “to do” lists and concrete directives. Its easy to act when we know what we are supposed to do. Here are 5 things I have come up with for selflessly serving our wives:

Maintain our own spiritual health. The reality is that this is a humanly impossible task. People are naturally self-centered and selfish. Giving of self is not gonna be our strength for the long term. God understands this and makes a way for us through his Holy Spirit working in our lives. This is not instant, it requires spiritual growth. A decent place to start is reading about Jesus and talking to God. We must grow if we are to love and lead our wives.

Lead spiritually. Leading spiritually begins with praying for our wives. This is a daily task that prepares us to sacrificially love them. Worshipping with our wives is another important part. Far too often I see wives who bring their kids to church while husbands sleep in on Sundays. Leading spiritual growth in the family requires participation in the spiritual practices. A final component worth implementing is leading the spiritual development of the family through study, discussion, and family prayer.

Doing chores, without ulterior motives. Finding things that need to be done and doing them is service. Changing toilet paper rolls, doing laundry, bathing kids, or any other chore efforts are concrete shows of love and grace. It’s important that as these are taken on, it is with a heart of service and not in an effort to receive a reward. I cannot tell you how many men I have spoken with, who are frustrated when they do dishes, vacuum, or undertake any other household chore only to be angered when their wives don’t amorously reward them for their efforts. I’ll admit that I am guilty of this too. Serving selflessly means not seeking reward. Its a gift, not a job done in search of a reward. Wives aren’t stupid, they generally see through these ploys. Further, it ruins the blessing we bestow in our act of service. Selfless is the watchword here.

Giving them time away. It is easy for wives to feel overwhelmed by the constant demands that are made of them. This is particularly the case when kids arrive, because their demands on mommy’s attention can be nearly constant. I’ve found that one of the best acts of service I undertake is letting my wife nap or spend time to herself. Taking the kids to the park or out for an evening is one way. There are all sorts of others, like taking care of chores so she has no pressing concerns or planning time away from the house.

Courting her. After marriage it is so easy to stop romancing our wives. We don’t need to convince her to marry us, so we stop buying flowers, taking her out for dinner, talking for hours, listening to her share her feelings, hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc. There are many ways to demonstrate affectionate attention that show her how important she is to you. There is a caveat here. If these things are always done with selfish motives and in an effort to get her to reciprocate physically, it will ruin the whole thing. I’m not saying that sex isn’t important to marriage. Rather, that selflessly serving is just that. Shifting service and affection from being a gift we give to a commodity we trade is sort of the antithesis of Christlike behavior.

This is a brief list. It is by no means all encompassing. Its purpose is to get your brain moving in the direction of how to serve. The biggest key is doing it with right motive, which is a product of prayer and the Holy Spirit working in us.

Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

A Romantic Dinner for 3? 5 Strategies for When the Kids Decide to Join Date Night

titus dnnerFriday, my wife and I had planned a stay-at-home date night. I grilled steaks, lit candles, and planned out our activities for the evening. That was when the baby started crying. He is 16-months old and has the sharpest radar for detecting parental enjoyment of any child that I have ever encountered. A diaper change and a bottle of milk later, and my beloved son was back in bed screaming like a banshee. My kids share a room, which means that all that screaming was libel to wake the preschooler. After a brief discussion, my wife and I agreed that the best course of action was to get our boy out of bed. He then joined us for date night. Mind you, this was not 30 minutes of our alone time. Several attempts to put him down for sleep ended in failure. He managed to stay through almost 3 hours of our date night. So, what happens when the kids just won’t let you have alone time?

Plan ahead. Perhaps the best way to make sure that you don’t have any pint-sized guests to your stay-at-home date night is to make sure they are worn out. Take the kids to the park, run them around in the yard, play with them, chase them around, skip or shorten their nap, and whatever else needs to happen to wear them out so they go to sleep. Planning is the key to avoiding the loved, but unwelcome dinner guest.

Maintain the regular routine. Children respond well to routine. Establishing a bedtime routine and sticking to it will help train them to go to sleep when the time comes. Think of it in terms of Pavlov and his dogs. He rang a bell when he fed them. Eventually, the dogs learned to associate the bell with feeding. The same principle works with children. Brushing teeth, reading stories, singing songs, going potty, and saying prayers are a good set of bed time activities that can serve as cues for the child to go to sleep. Because kids usually can’t tell time, this training can be effective even if bedtime is moved up an hour or two. Stick with the routine and your odds of smoother bedtime is more likely.

Plan to stay up late. With children who have a tougher time going to bed, it may be necessary to plan late nights for dates. You can do this on Fridays, especially if neither of you are getting up in the morning.  You can go to bed earlier the previous evening or  nap during the day. This may require some give from one or both partners, but time together, alone is vital to relationship health. Later date nights are an easy solution.

Make the best of it. Sure adding a kid to the mix throws off the romance of a candlelit dinner and makes cuddling through a movie nearly impossible. It definitely throws cold water on many of the sorts of plans husbands and wives usually make for evenings alone. It’s not ideal, but generally even the most stubborn children go to sleep eventually. As frustrating as an awake child is, working your way through the situation with the best attitude possible is sometimes your only option. The worst thing you can do is get frustrated, angry, resentful, or upset. A foul mood is far more toxic to intimacy than a child. Make the best of it. Eat dinner, watch your movie, play a game, skip or shorten naps, or do whatever it is you need to do until your precious child goes to sleep.

Don’t give up. It’s easy to get frustrated. If one night doesn’t work, perhaps the next night will. It is crummy when a fancy dessert or surprise roses are deployed on a non-date night, but it’s important to work together and put frustrations aside. Dating is important to the relationship and needs to be pursued for the good of the relationship and the kids.
Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Dating My Wife

During the first year after having our daughter, my wife and I went out alone twice. 944422_10151382747321599_1727274684_nWe didn’t live near family, weren’t comfortable with leaving our baby with anyone, were constantly tired from late night feedings, and were so busy with family and work obligations that we just didn’t go out. We didn’t have time, lacked opportunities, and really lacked the energy necessary to go anywhere. As time went by, we began to go out together again, until our second baby came along. This time, as our time together began to wane, we both noticed the trend and agreed to make changes. Spending time together -and alone- is important to the health of our relationship in the long term. It’s a basic maintenance practice for a healthy relationship. Without time spent focusing on each other, the relationship can eventually grow stale and cold.

Recognizing the pattern and responding: When we realized that we were falling out of the courting pattern and into a parenting-only pattern in our relationship, we started by occasionally finding a sitter and going out for dinner. This happened mainly when we noticed that it had been a while since we had gone out. The problem with this approach was that it tended to result in us going out on dates about once a month, sometimes less often. Sitters can be difficult to arrange, expensive, and it can be tough to build the energy for an outing. Though this was better than going out every 6 months, we quickly recognized that this as-we-noticed-we-needed-to approach left us fairly distant. Our solution was to agree on an appropriate frequency for dating and come up with a plan for date-planning.

1926840_10152187510656835_205969447562527891_nThe need for intentional planning: The big key to ongoing, active dating life after kids is intentionality. When we don’t have a pattern to follow, we tend to let it fall to the wayside, behind parenting, work, or church obligations. Our solution was to agree that we needed dedicated one-on-one time at least once a week. We also agreed that this time should not consist primarily of engaging in life maintenance activities, though it is tempting to go grocery shopping without the kids along. We agreed that we would take turns planning the weekly date night. I plan one week, she plans the next. This way we are given a little time between having to put a bunch of effort into organizing and plan an evening together. In addition, planning the date is a simple way of serving each other.

Stay-At-Home-Dates: Because of the challenges associated with going out, we have also begun planning stay-at-home dates. A stay in date night begins early in the day, when we run the kids ragged so they will sleep early. After putting the kids to bed early, we spend the evening together. There is a temptation to just watch movies on stay-at-home date night, but we try not to fall into this pattern. Date night usually features a nice meal, though I’ll confess that my wife is better at planning and executing date night dinners than I am. She is good at planning unique dishes and varied cuisine. I usually plan dessert well, making fondue or baking cookies. Sometimes we light candles, sometimes we don’t. We always try to do the best we can with the circumstances available, particularly when a fussy baby joins us for a romantic candlelit dinner. Apart from dinner, date night often includes board games, though sometimes we watch movies. We always try to spend time talking and enjoying each other’s company.

1521517_10151723998876599_1632361690_nThe Spirit, Rather than the Letter: I wish I could say we are consistent, or that every date night is the stuff of fairy tales. In reality, we are doing our best for each other. It’s difficult to invest in your marriage when there is so much other stuff that is demanding time, energy, and money. The dividends paid out on this investment is worth the effort. In the end, we try to approach the whole thing with grace and commitment. Sometimes, I plan more than one week in a row. Sometimes I’m too busy or tired to do much of anything. We don’t judge, we work together as a team to improve our relationship. Marriage is a team effort.

Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Tools In the Marital Toolbox: The Heart Alignment Tool

Years ago, I was replacing the clutch on my car. After removing the old clutch, I went to a high end transmission shop, where the guy at the counter explained that though they had the part, they did not have the alignment tool that normally clutch toolcomes with it. I had never replaced a clutch and had no idea how important the tool was, so I said “no problem” and was on my way. I discovered that it actually was a problem when I attempted to put the engine back into the car with the misaligned clutch. The engine simply would not fit the transmission. I tried several improvised fixes, but had no success. Finally, I pulled off the clutch and went back to the shop, where a different guy was now at the counter. He looked at the clutch and stated firmly that they didn’t sell the alignment tools separately and that the part was not returnable because I had attempted installation. After some arguing and effort, I realized I wasn’t going to make any progress. I then turned to the internet and discover that no one was selling my alignment tool. Finally, after days of working on the problem, I took the engine to the dealer and paid an hour’s worth of labor to a technician, who spent 3 minutes aligning my part. The little plastic alignment tool, that seemed so unimportant at the time, was vital to properly installing my clutch. Without the tool, the engine, which produces power, simply couldn’t connect to the transmission, which transfers power to the tires.

There is a similar problem in many marriages. Both members of the partnership have specific ideas as to how things ought to be, heart alignmentbut struggle with making the ideal version in their head transfer into relationship reality. They want to communicate without arguing, agree on financial decisions, experience perfect harmony in their physical relationship, and find that spark of excitement that was present when they first started dating. The problem arises when the idea as to how marriage ought to be fails to translate into forward and harmonious movement in the relationship. This misalignment is a product of the fallen nature, which inclines us toward self-centeredness. If you take a look at Paul’s description of love in 1 Corinthians 13, you will find the antithesis of the sinful inclination of man. It’s natural for people to struggle with making their behavior match their convictions. Paul describes this struggle in Romans 7,

I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

Our sinful flesh inclines us away from right and toward sin. It’s no coincidence that Paul talks about a perfect version of love in the context of spiritual gifts, because the love he describes is impossible for us to live out. It is a product of the Holy Spirit’s intervention.
One tool in the marital toolbox is similar to the one I was missing when the time arose for me to align my clutch. The great heart alignment tool available to believers is the intervention of the Spirit, aiding us toward Christlike action. As we submit our lives to Christ and learn to obey His teachings, the Holy Spirit produces new attitudes and behavior in our lives. If we simply try to obey a set of standards, apart from new life in Christ, we will find ourselves mired in legalism, which is ultimately impossible to maintain for the long haul. Ultimately, this will produce the same sort of results that my improvised alignment tools produced. The tool that was designed to fit my car is the only one that could successfully line up my engine and transmission.

The misalignment of heart and actions in the marital context is best illustrated by the responses of husbands to Paul’s teaching in Philippians 5:25-27

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies.

When reading this passage with men, I find that they often get hung up on talk of wives obeying, which is addressed in the preceding verse. They complain that their wife doesn’t obey them, and they harbor resentment because of it. This is a product of a misalignment of heart with the heart of Christ, specifically because they aren’t looking at the passages that apply to them. They are only looking at what they are owed. Husbands bear the responsibility of loving their wives asclick here tools Christ loved the church. This literally means that husbands should be willing to give everything for their wives and take on the role of servant. He ought to lead his family spiritually, not only in words, but also in action. The job of a husband is to align their attitude and behavior with that of Jesus. When she offends him, he forgives. He is patient, selfless, kind, and forgiving. When things are not as they ought to be, he guides through love and sacrifice. We do not see Christ demanding that He be served. The tool that helps us to align our hearts with his, and then our actions with our heart is the Holy Spirit. Prayer, confession, accountability, devotion to the Word, and obedience is our side of the equation. The Spirit convicts and changes us as we strive toward holiness. Without the Spirit, we simply cannot manage this on our own.

Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

5 Daddy-Daughter Date Night Ideas

real world linkI take my 3-year old daughter out on dates every couple of weeks. She picks the sort of restaurant we would visit, the activities we engage in, what we have for dessert, and what kind of music we listen to while driving. She dresses up and we spent the evening together. My daughter and I go on dates regularly. We watch movies together, we go for walks, we have tea parties, we talk, and spend time together doing all sorts of other father-daughter activities. She asks me often to take her out and spend time with her because she enjoys it. I enjoy it, but I have another objective. I am teaching her about what a relationship with men ought to look like. I touched on this previously in the first Raising a Real World Superhero article, but it’s important enough that it merits deeper consideration. For starters, it’s scriptural. Proverbs 22:6 offers the best principle for this practice:

Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.

By teaching my daughter what she ought to look for in a male relationship, she will learn how a man ought to treat her. Spending time modeling relationship is far more effective than simply telling her how a man ought to treat her, because it is training her. The time a father spends with his daughter trains her in the first lessons she will learn about men and what male relationships ought to look like. I want to do the best I can to teach her what loving, attentive, and supportive relationships with a Christlike man ought to look like. I want her to learn that a man ought to cherish her and treat her like a princess, who is a child of God.

In the last 3 years, I have learned, through effort and focus, how to make my daughter feel like the treasure that God sees her as. I am writing to share some of the basic “dates” I go on with my little girl, with the hopes that they will inspire other dads to engage their little girls and teach them how a man of God ought to treat them.

1. Dinner and a day together: 10689867_10152240843956599_4277277737945522172_nWhen Abbey and I go on dates, she gets to pick everything we do. This usually begins with her picking what dinner will be. For some reason, she has decided that Chinese food and eating with sticks is the best thing in the world. A year ago, she loved eating at McDonalds and playing in the play land. I don’t like McDonalds, but I eat where she wants because I want her to know it’s special. We eat and talk. She tells me stories. I ask her questions. She gets my full attention. When given a choice as to what she wants to do after eating out, sometimes she wants to go to the comic book store, or to the book store, or to buy bows at the girl stuff store. She picks and she gets my attention the whole time. Please note that I don’t buy her everything she wants, but she does get my full attention.

IMG_21592. Tea parties: I am not a fan of tea parties, but we do them regularly. Stuffed toys usually attend. There is usually cookies and snacks. We drink tea, eat cookies, pretend, play, and talk. Usually setting up the tea party is as fun for her as having the party. Sometimes I read her stories. Most tea parties last about an hour, and she loves them.

3. Camping: Camping is a bigger production, but is a huge deal to her. She is only 3, so camping isn’t usually as much an outdoor adventure, as it is an opportunity to stay up too late, eat junk food, watch cartoons, look at stars, and sleep in a tent. We sometimes just camp in the yard, while other times we camp in the mountains or parks. It doesn’t matter to her. Camping with dad is an adventure. When her little brother gets older, she won’t get to do this alone anymore. For now, it’s a favorite of hers.


4. Movie Night
: This week, my wife had an evening out withmovie night some gals from church. This left me home alone with the kids. We rented a cartoon movie and I let her pick dinner. She decided we would eat popcorn for dinner, drink soda, and eat cookie dough for dessert. We talked about the cartoon, she hid under the blanket at scary parts, and she told me she loved the whole evening.

5. The Park: An afternoon at the park is one of her favorite things to do. I push her on the swings, I talk to her, we chase each other around, and she gets my full attention for the duration of our time there. Sometimes we go for ice cream or get fruit snacks at the grocery store. Sometimes we go for walks. The important thing is spending time.

Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

When Elephants Fight, the Ants Lose: Divorce and Its Effect on Kids

For around three years, I ran a class designed to help children whose parents were going through divorce cope with the emotional strain they were experiencing. During the years I ran those classes, I was frequently struck by the recurring comments made by the young people who participated in the classes. elephantsComments ranged from dismay over the loss of family to frustration over newfound awkwardness in parental relationships to consternation at their parents’ inability to just stop being so cruel to each other. It was seldom the case that a class went without a child breaking down and crying. Interestingly, I never once saw any of the children tease each other over tears shed in that setting. Except in instances of an absent, addicted, or exceptionally abusive parent, I never heard a child say that the divorce was a welcome change.

In contrast, on the occasions that I ran the adult version of the class or interacted with parents before or after the class, I frequently heard parents say things to the effect of: they were ready to move on or anxious to close that chapter in their lives. The prospect of freedom from the unpleasantness of the marriage relationship was a breath of fresh air that would free them up to find someone new. It’s interesting that few parents acknowledged that their new found freedom would not be shared by their child, who would hence forth live in the far more difficult circumstance of trying to navigate their adolescent years with two families, rather than one.

There is an old adage: “When the elephants fight, the ants lose.” For all the unpleasantness spouses experience in disintegrating marriages, children are the ones who are unintentionally stepped on. The most important element in the life of every child is stability. They need it in order to thrive and are usually poorly equipped to deal with the stress of such a major life change. This is why children of divorce are statistically more likely to turn to drugs or alcohol, perform poorly in school, have behavioral difficulties, and be incarcerated. Worse still is that children from divorced homes are far more likely to get divorced themselves.  The biggest loser in divorce is the one member who did not ask to join the family, and is the least equipped to cope with change.

The responsibility in the parenting/married relationship belongs to the parents. This often elicits the response: “So I’m supposed to stay in a miserable relationship forever?” This is a case of asking the wrong question. Parents are not responsible to be tied to a miserable relationship. They are burdened with the responsibility to work together to make certain that the relationship is durable.  This is easy to do while dating because courting is hard work. Couples have to listen, say nice things, buy gifts, go on dates, talk through problems, and try to be romantic/attractive in order to get to the altar in the first place. The trick is that the work doesn’t end there. It goes on for life. This is also the responsibility of married parents. A happy and stable marriage/family takes as much hard work as a career and it is a commitment requiring daily effort that we vow to take on from the moment we say “I do.”

This is not to say that everyone who gets a divorce ruins their children forever or that they will instantly go to hell. Though the Bible presents a pretty negative view on the topic of divorce, there are instances in which provision is made. There are circumstances in which the protection of the child or one of the spouses may be at stake, infidelity, abandonment, and so forth simply force the issue. The larger point here isn’t to attack those who are divorced. Rather, it is to encourage those who are married and raising kids to put in the work to keep their relationship healthy. Divorce hurts children deeply. It is important that parents make every effort to maintain a healthy relationship as a protection against the potential for hurting their children.

Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,